www.robertgraves.org Forum Index www.robertgraves.org
Robert Graves Online Discussion Forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Grave Greetings
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.robertgraves.org Forum Index -> The White Goddess
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tami Whitehead
poet


Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Southeast Texas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2002 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fell,

LOL, my mistake about you registering on the site, I guess I had just read an old guest post...or maybe I was just plain ol' wrong, which does happen from time to time...

Anyhow, glad you are here with us.

I would be very interested to know why and how this is full circle for you. And I am still waiting for the giants Wink

As for pre-Pantheon gods of writing, and giants/titans with writing, I would have to agree with you. I have heard of none. However, I would point out that although Hermes was late to join the Olympians, he was already an old god at the time. Also, the manner in which Hermes 'learned' the alphabet implies that it was first the domain of the goddess. Rather like Odin, in that respect. Graves mentions that the first alphabet was of wedge-shaped characters, because it resembled it the tracks of cranes (which leads us again to WG, and the crane dance) which shows that at least the Greeks knew of cunieform. We also know that the Greeks lost the ability to write a written language during their Dark Ages, and regained it prior to the Classical period, just barely...Sooooo...which alphabet is Hermes credited with, the older Cretan or the newer import from the Phoenicians (where are the Phoenician myths of the source of writing or alphabets?) ?

Was it a syllabary, or a true alphabet? How many characters, and in what order?

Also, I am curious like I said about the goddess(es) who taught Hermes the alphabet. One source says the Fates. And Hermes is the son of Maia, old old old. Were there schools of priestesses, who wandered the land like volvas, dispensing wisdom and letters? Was this a revamping of a much older tale, since the deities involved are older than the Thunderer? Just speculating...


Tami
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Guest






PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:17 pm    Post subject: fates and giants Reply with quote

Hi Tami,

Thanks for the Fates, those dear women. Even if there is nothing tangibly there, at least philosophically it's charming. I never considered who the good ol boys who came up with the letters may have got them from (apart from Odin and that well hanging high above his head.)

Sorry it's so short this morning. Our blasted happy network is down at work and that is where, alas, I must head; to draw pretty pictures to sell things. Hopefully tomorrow morning I can add more to the conversation.
Back to top
Tami Whitehead
poet


Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Southeast Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:45 pm    Post subject: Three Fates and Wells in Trees: It Gets Weirder Reply with quote

Hello, er Guest (Tonal? Fell? A new guest?)

First, let me say that I do know the difference between the mythological source for alphabet, and the actual historical source. That being said, I think (for me) there is something to how folks said these came to be, in both the historical and mythological sense. Thank you Mr. Graves, for teaching me that one is not always apart from the other.

You raise an interesting point, even in a rush to get to work. You said "Odin and that well hanging high above his head..." Interesting spin on things. Of course, it is easy to stick to the Havamal and keep Odin 'skydancing' for the mystery of letters, but the fact that you thought to throw the well in as if Mimir's well were in that tree...very interesting. Do you know another Odin gets runes myth, or are you extrapolating? Because even if you do not know another rune myth for Odin, linking it with Mimir's Well may have been a bit of Lunar Thinking, as Mr. Graves would say...

Consider: In the Havamal, Odin hung in an oak, typical Oak King sacrifice, "himself to himself." Mimir's Well is said to be in the World Ash. Snorri I think was the one who drew the quaint picture of the worlds within the Ash, the snakes gnawing and the harts grazing and the Norns dispensing at the spring etc...However, if we look at the World Ash as simply the world, with all things in it, praps an oak tree inside an ash isn't far fetched. Also, there is insufficient evidence of just what wisdom Odin gained at Mimir's well, though the popular thought is clairvoyance or prophecy, giving an eye to see further...(What did Mimir want with an eye anyhow? Did we mention that Mimir was a giant, so may be the link between giants and letters, if there is one, if this little rabbit trail turns out to lead to another telling of the Havamal...) So, I suppose it could be that the fragment Snorri retold a couple of hundred years after the last temple to Thor had been dismantled, is a fragment of another myth he knew nothing about. In fact, most of his Eddas could be just that, fragments of fragments and misremembered at best...

So. Hermes. Letters. Cranes. Why did Hermes learn cuneiform, rather than the older greek (not mycenean) alphabet? The Three Fates...well, Car, Caria, Carmina? I mean, we are in Phoenecia at this point, right, so was it the Merciful Ones who taught Hermes, or another set of very old Triple Goddess from that precinct?

Anyhow, something to think about. I look forward to input from all of you on this.

PS, has anyone read Graves' Hebrew Myths? What did you think?

Tami
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
fell
gleeman


Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:52 pm    Post subject: checking in; mentioning brief things Reply with quote

Hello.
Sorry for my absence; totalled my car etc, which sent me to the oblivion of architecture and film Shocked . I hope this afternoon to rejoin the conversation.

In the meantime, Tami, I was reading a bit about the Anakim and came across the concept that they were healers. This surprised me, since giants having such a great capacity hadn't hit me before. But as I type this, something is pulling on the bell in my brain, holding onto that cord with two fists and a blank face.

And the Guest that posted a week ago, mentioning the full circle was myself. Forgot to sign in. My apologies for the mystery, but alas, another time. Hopefully we can pick up where left off. Have fun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tami Whitehead
poet


Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Southeast Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brian,
So sorry about your car Sad( I hope you are alright. Glad to have you back though. As you can see, things have slowed down a bit, much to my dismay. It will be wonderful to have you back to play with so to speak.

Anakim--healers...??? That is cool. More please. That bell started ringing in my head as well, remembering the wonderful passages from M. Renault where old Hand (Cheiron) was the chief of the Horse Totem tribe in the hills, and they were wonderfully gifted healers...Are you familiar with her books? Some wonderful gems of theory and such are embedded in her tales...

Anakim...annunaki...giants...titans painted with gypsum...See, I always thought of that thing with the titans daubing themselves white with gypsum sounded rather like something out of Quest for Fire, only they use ash and charcoal, but you see my point. Primitive tribes that paint themselves ritually, and I can't help but wonder if the guys in ancient Britain who carved the chalky cliffs also daubed themselves white with the same chalk...very lunar. There are a number of white beings in the European pantheon, now that I think of it. Branwyn, Gwenifere, etc...wait a minute, there was a horse there too, on the cliff...

Hmmm...if the neoliths painted dead people red with ochre, and live people white with chalk or gypsum, what would that signify? Is it lunar magic? Red and white were sacred or ritual colors for the moon goddess, along with black...I am just throwing all this out, I don't know if it means anything...

Meanwhile, back in the Joseph Campbell list I am in (don't throw anything, I am on a mission to uncover their eyes...) the topic of archetypes in being discussed. The lead Jungian apostle of the list has just announced that the archetypes are more than the gods, and more than just about everything, and that any divine or sacred experiance is really the internalization of archetype. I have developed a tic in my eye, and it won't go away. Evil or Very Mad Oh please, spirit of Robert Graves come forth, and give me words of wisdom to combat these fluffy gerrymanders...

Twitching,
Tami
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Tonal
rhymer


Joined: 09 Oct 2002
Posts: 1
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: The Misters Smith Reply with quote

Hi Tammy,
you wrote:

"Didn't Grave's somewhere speak of statues of gods being tied or otherwise restrained to keep them from returning to their original land?"

In Chapter 3 of the White Goddess (p. 50), Graves sites a remark by Diodorus Siculus (xvii, 41) who writes that 'the Tyrians used to chain up their statues as a precaution.' He is however refering to preventing the statues (and names) of gods being stolen by their enemies, not to stop them from "returning home" once they have been stolen.

The text of Diodorus can be found here http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084&layout=&loc=17.41.1
(last paragraph (7) last sentence)

Regards
Tonal
_________________
-- A device of Gods contrivance that breads amazement on those who fix their gaze upon it, is that universal nature molds form and type by the constant revolution of potency and it's converse about the double in the various progressions... --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tami Whitehead
poet


Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Southeast Texas

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tonal, Fell and Mark,
and assorted rhymers, gleeman and poets...

Hey! Hope all is well with my Graves friends. I am digging this Fall weather around here, getting ready for my b-day. Tonal, thanks for the link to Diodorus etc., I am always excited to find sources online and save my shrinking bookshelf space Wink I am always so surprised and delighted to find these little Alexandrian libraries tucked here and there on the web. I am one of those who weep at the thought of lost books, of lost libraries, and so forth. I consider it one of my dharmic responsibilities to safeguard these treasures, and so am compulsive about downloading and printing all the little goodies I come across.

Tonal, you also gave me the WG source for the chained deities. Thanks again. I just got my replacement copy of WG, and am dancing/drowning comfortably in the slow green light of its depths. I am sure to have more specific and better worded inquiries now that I will be working from straight misunderstanding of the text, rather than half-remembered misunderstandings (Har har har, these are the jokes, I say, these are the jokes son!) Kidding aside, I did think, I guess I still think, that there was some mention somewhere of protecting or guarding deities, not just their names etc. I will ponder it some more...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
Fell, I so much want to know more about this healing aspect of the Anukim that you mentioned earlier...can you recommend some sources for me? What was the bellman with his hands on the rope whispering to you as you posted? I am all anticipation, and would like to hear your wonderings aloud, if you don't mind...

Tami
(With an 'i' -- the 'i' is for 'incandescent')
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Mark Carter
poet


Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 28
Location: Bloomington, IL, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:49 pm    Post subject: Elicio Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have something about the habit of chaining up deities and protecting their names in my notes. It was considered a method of protection against a process called elicio, the tempting away of a patron deity by outsiders. Graves makes a short mention of it in chapter 3 but I don't recall the idea of chaining up deities in WG. He might have wrote about it elsewhere tho. From my notes;



Graves mentions the process of elicio, the use of ritual, oaths or promises to draw a deity's presence away from a particular city or people which that deity supposedly protects. He tells how this process was used by the Romans to summon enemy deities to Rome, thus supposedly gaining their favor through this act of acceptance. This, in turn, was closely linked with the need to conceal the name of the guardian deity and Graves cites the case of Quintus Soranus who was killed for revealing such a divine name. Graves probably found this material in Golden Bough, where Frazer recounts the same story. (Quintus himself is used again by Graves in chapter twenty.) This process of stealing deities, either symbolically or literally, was so widespread that some temples would chain up their statues to avoid having them stolen. Such measures could also be seen as symbolically binding the deity, thus keeping the divinity from leaving the temple.

In reality, there is much more to the process of elicio than Graves mentions here. Elicio could be used as Graves suggests, to lure away a god or goddess to another center of worship or to invoke that deity's wrath against the people it supposedly protects. However, the most common use of elicio was probably the simple removal of divine protection from a city, and the placation of that city's patron deity before an attack. Many ancient cities, especially the larger and most important ones of any culture, made a great deal over what deities resided within their temples. Certain cities had the reputation of being the homes of particular deities, or were considered under the protection of a patron deity. We can be sure that if such a city were under siege or attack the attacking army would be well aware of the city's divine protection. Thus, in order to defeat the city, their protecting gods or goddesses must be draw out through the use of some magical ritual and either asked to leave the city or to at least grant temporary victory to the attacking army. Once this ritual was completed by the attackers they could consider the defending city as fair game. It was now a city with no divine protection and the attackers could sack the city as they wished without fear of divine wrath.

Elicio was more than a simple ritual performed out of fear. It was also a shrewd act of psychological warfare. The attacking army could now bolster their courage with the idea that they had befriended the enemy gods and that they could do no wrong in their eyes, no matter how horribly they acted towards the people. The defending city would likewise suffer a loss of faith or courage upon seeing the enemy priests outside their gate offering up prayers to the patron deity of the city and then claiming success. What pagan soldier would not lose heart after seeing his patron deity placated by enemy prayers and then being told that his home was no longer under divine protection? In a sense, much of The Iliad deals with the ideas behind elicio. Nowhere else in pagan literature is man's attempts to gain the wartime favor of the gods so well documented. The ten year siege at Troy ended only after the city's primary deities had withdrawn their support.

Just some ideas....

Mark Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.robertgraves.org Forum Index -> The White Goddess All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group